Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

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Incognito
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 16 avr. 2018, 23:11:18

Le témoignage de Robert Fisk à Douma. Une des rares sources auxquelles je fais confiance en ce qui concerne la Syrie, et le Moyen-Orient en général. Ses premières conclusions: il n’y a probablement pas eu d’attaque chimique à Douma, mais les vidéos étaient bien réelles.
The search for truth in the rubble of Douma - and one doctor’s doubts over the chemical attack

lun. 16 avr. 2018 - 18:16

Exclusive: Robert Fisk visits the Syria clinic at the centre of a global crisis.

Image

This is the story of a town called Douma, a ravaged, stinking place of smashed apartment blocks -- and of an underground clinic whose images of suffering allowed three of the Western world’s most powerful nations to bomb Syria last week. There’s even a friendly doctor in a green coat who, when I track him down in the very same clinic, cheerfully tells me that the ‘gas’ videotape which horrified the world – despite all the doubters – is perfectly genuine.

War stories, however, have a habit of growing darker. For the same 58-year old senior Syrian doctor then adds something profoundly uncomfortable: the patients, he says, were overcome not by gas but by oxygen starvation in the rubbish-filled tunnels and basements in which they lived, on a night of wind and heavy shelling that stirred up a dust storm.

As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eye witness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as “terrorists” – the regime’s word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria. Am I hearing this right? Which version of events are we to believe?

By bad luck, too, the doctors who were on duty that night on 7 April were all in Damascus giving evidence to a chemical weapons enquiry, which will be attempting to provide a definitive answer to that question in the coming weeks.

France, meanwhile, has said it has “proof” chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients “exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals”.

Image

At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.

Before we go any further, readers should be aware that this is not the only story in Douma. There are the many people I talked amid the ruins of the town who said they had “never believed in” gas stories – which were usually put about, they claimed, by the armed Islamist groups. These particular jihadis survived under a blizzard of shellfire by living in other’s people’s homes and in vast, wide tunnels with underground roads carved through the living rock by prisoners with pick-axes on three levels beneath the town. I walked through three of them yesterday, vast corridors of living rock which still contained Russian – yes, Russian – rockets and burned-out cars.

So the story of Douma is thus not just a story of gas – or no gas, as the case may be. It’s about thousands of people who did not opt for evacuation from Douma on buses that left last week, alongside the gunmen with whom they had to live like troglodytes for months in order to survive. I walked across this town quite freely yesterday without soldier, policeman or minder to haunt my footsteps, just two Syrian friends, a camera and a notebook. I sometimes had to clamber across 20-foot-high ramparts, up and down almost sheer walls of earth. Happy to see foreigners among them, happier still that the siege is finally over, they are mostly smiling; those whose faces you can see, of course, because a surprising number of Douma’s women wear full-length black hijab.

I first drove into Douma as part of an escorted convoy of journalists. But once a boring general had announced outside a wrecked council house “I have no information” – that most helpful rubbish-dump of Arab officialdom -- I just walked away. Several other reporters, mostly Syrian, did the same. Even a group of Russian journalists – all in military attire – drifted off.

It was a short walk to Dr Rahaibani. From the door of his subterranean clinic – “Point 200,” it is called, in the weird geology of this partly-underground city – is a corridor leading downhill where he showed me his lowly hospital and the few beds where a small girl was crying as nurses treated a cut above her eye.

“I was with my family in the basement of my home three hundred metres from here on the night but all the doctors know what happened. There was a lot of shelling [by government forces] and aircraft were always over Douma at night -- but on this night, there was wind and huge dust clouds began to come into the basements and cellars where people lived. People began to arrive here suffering from hypoxia, oxygen loss. Then someone at the door, a ‘White Helmet’, shouted ‘Gas!”, and a panic began. People started throwing water over each other. Yes, the video was filmed here, it is genuine, but what you see are people suffering from hypoxia – not gas poisoning.”

Image

Independent Middle East Correspondent Robert Fisk in one of the miles of tunnels hacked beneath Douma by prisoners of Syrian rebels (Yara Ismail)

Oddly, after chatting to more than 20 people, I couldn’t find one who showed the slightest interest in Douma’s role in bringing about the Western air attacks. Two actually told me they didn’t know about the connection.

But it was a strange world I walked into. Two men, Hussam and Nazir Abu Aishe, said they were unaware how many people had been killed in Douma, although the latter admitted he had a cousin “executed by Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] for allegedly being “close to the regime”. They shrugged when I asked about the 43 people said to have died in the infamous Douma attack.

The White Helmets – the medical first responders already legendary in the West but with some interesting corners to their own story – played a familiar role during the battles. They are partly funded by the Foreign Office and most of the local offices were staffed by Douma men. I found their wrecked offices not far from Dr Rahaibani’s clinic. A gas mask had been left outside a food container with one eye-piece pierced and a pile of dirty military camouflage uniforms lay inside one room. Planted, I asked myself? I doubt it. The place was heaped with capsules, broken medical equipment and files, bedding and mattresses.

Of course we must hear their side of the story, but it will not happen here: a woman told us that every member of the White Helmets in Douma abandoned their main headquarters and chose to take the government-organised and Russian-protected buses to the rebel province of Idlib with the armed groups when the final truce was agreed.

There were food stalls open and a patrol of Russian military policemen – a now optional extra for every Syrian ceasefire – and no-one had even bothered to storm into the forbidding Islamist prison near Martyr’s Square where victims were supposedly beheaded in the basements. The town’s complement of Syrian interior ministry civilian police – who eerily wear military clothes – are watched over by the Russians who may or may not be watched by the civilians. Again, my earnest questions about gas were met with what seemed genuine perplexity.

How could it be that Douma refugees who had reached camps in Turkey were already describing a gas attack which no-one in Douma today seemed to recall? It did occur to me, once I was walking for more than a mile through these wretched prisoner-groined tunnels, that the citizens of Douma lived so isolated from each other for so long that ‘news’ in our sense of the word simply had no meaning to them. Syria doesn’t cut it as Jeffersonian democracy – as I cynically like to tell my Arab colleagues – and it is indeed a ruthless dictatorship, but that couldn’t cow these people, happy to see foreigners among them, from reacting with a few words of truth. So what were they telling me?

They talked about the Islamists under whom they had lived. They talked about how the armed groups had stolen civilian homes to avoid the Syrian government and Russian bombing. The Jaish el-Islam had burned their offices before they left, but the massive buildings inside the security zones they created had almost all been sandwiched to the ground by air strikes. A Syrian colonel I came across behind one of these buildings asked if I wanted to see how deep the tunnels were. I stopped after well over a mile when he cryptically observed that “this tunnel might reach as far as Britain”. Ah yes, Mrs May, I remembered, whose air strikes had been so intimately connected to this place of tunnels and dust. And gas?

Robert Fisk Douma, Syria
Article complet sur https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sy ... 07726.html
Dieu est mort. Marx est mort. Et moi-même je ne me sens pas très bien ... (Woody Allen)

Incognito
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 16 avr. 2018, 23:34:29

Et un journaliste américain qui confirme:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lSXwG-901yU
Dieu est mort. Marx est mort. Et moi-même je ne me sens pas très bien ... (Woody Allen)

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Yakiv
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Yakiv » 17 avr. 2018, 00:11:53

Dans un article du Monde des livres, Les limites de l'indignation, au sujet de La Grande Guerre pour la civilisation, Alain Frachon écrit : « Autant on le suit et on l'admire dans sa description des souffrances individuelles, son récit de l'horreur de la guerre, autant cette manière de désigner un unique bouc émissaire [i.e. l'Occident] paraît simpliste, militante, indigne d'un diplômé en histoire de Trinity College. Fisk a l'indignation magnifique, mais trop à sens unique. On aimerait qu'il pratique le même flamboyant journalisme de combat pour dénoncer les énormes responsabilités des élites de la région - politiques, religieuses, culturelles, etc. - dans les malheurs de leurs peuples ».
(Wikipédia)

=> OK, on a compris.

Incognito
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 17 avr. 2018, 01:09:23

Je ne vais pas répéter ce que j’ai déjà dit sur ce même fil.
viewtopic.php?p=532747#p532747
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Yakiv
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Yakiv » 17 avr. 2018, 08:21:51

Incognito a écrit :
17 avr. 2018, 01:09:23
Je ne vais pas répéter ce que j’ai déjà dit sur ce même fil.
viewtopic.php?p=532747#p532747
Le problème, c'est que la réputation qui a précédé Robert Fisk, à travers l'écriture de ses ouvrages notamment qui diabolisaient le rôle des occidentaux à l'international, fait que, avant même qu'il se rende sur place, on connaissait déjà son opinion...
Et ça c'est un gros problème en terme de crédibilité journalistique.

Incognito
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 17 avr. 2018, 13:10:57

Incognito a écrit :
15 avr. 2018, 14:20:56
Quoi qu’il en soit, cette affaire ne va quasi-certainement rien changer au cours de la guerre en Syrie.

Je pense que le gouvernement syrien va d’abord vouloir reconquérir les 3 dernières poches complètement encerclées: celle de Yarmouk au sud de Damas, le Qualamoun Oriental au nord-est de Damas, et la poche de Rastan au nord de Homs. Tout indique que le gouvernement va commencer par la poche de Yarmouk, qui est tenue par Daesh et qui sera probablement la plus dure à prendre. Je pense que la reprise de ces trois poches durera quelques mois.

L’elimination de ces trois poches libérera les forces armées considérables qui les encerclaient. Elles viendront bien à point pour reprendre les deux principales enclaves tenues par les rebelles: l’enclave de Daraa à la frontière jordanienne, et celle d’Idlib.

Se posera ensuite la question des territoires tenus par les turcs, et ceux tenus par les kurdes et les américains et leurs alliés français et britanniques (s’ils sont encore là).
Les choses s’accélèrent en Syrie. La bataille de Yarmouk a commencé. Il y a des combats dans la poche de Rastan. Et une part importante des rebelles de la poche du Qualamoun Oriental viennent de se rendre.
Breaking: 1,000 militants prepare to leave Ad-Dumayr city in northeast Damascus as evacuation deal goes into effect

mar. 17 avr. 2018 - 10:53

BEIRUT, LEBANON (1:57 P.M.) - Reports have begun to emerge from Syrian state media (SANA) claiming that over one thousand rebel fighters are preparing to evacuate the city of Ad-Dumayr

BEIRUT, LEBANON (1:57 P.M.) – Reports have begun to emerge from Syrian state media (SANA) claiming that over one thousand rebel fighters are preparing to evacuate the city of Ad-Dumayr in northeastern Damascus province.

The militants are noted to all belong to the Jaysh al-Islam faction – a group which has seen its forces recently ejected from other areas east of the Syrian capital. They will reportedly be relocated to the city of Jarablus, currently under the control of Turkish-backed rebels.

Reports state that, so far, Jaysh al-Islam fighters in Ad-Dumayr have begun to hand over their heavy equipment to the Syrian Army per an agreement with military negotiation authorities.

There are also reports that a small number of Jaysh al-Islam insurgents will reconcile with the Syrian government and remain in Ad-Dumayr, however this is unconfirmed.

Andrew Illingworth
Article complet sur https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/br ... to-effect/
Dieu est mort. Marx est mort. Et moi-même je ne me sens pas très bien ... (Woody Allen)

Incognito
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 17 avr. 2018, 13:18:43

Yakiv a écrit :
17 avr. 2018, 08:21:51
Incognito a écrit :
17 avr. 2018, 01:09:23
Je ne vais pas répéter ce que j’ai déjà dit sur ce même fil.
viewtopic.php?p=532747#p532747
Le problème, c'est que la réputation qui a précédé Robert Fisk, à travers l'écriture de ses ouvrages notamment qui diabolisaient le rôle des occidentaux à l'international, fait que, avant même qu'il se rende sur place, on connaissait déjà son opinion...
Et ça c'est un gros problème en terme de crédibilité journalistique.
La réputation qui précède Robert Fisk? Vous voulez parler de sa réputation d’excellence journalistique? Vous croyez que c’est Poutine qui lui a attribué tous ces prix?
Fisk has received the British Press Awards' International Journalist of the Year seven times,[38] and twice won its "Reporter of the Year" award.[39] He also received Amnesty International UK Media Awards in 1992 for his report "The Other Side of the Hostage Saga",[40] in 1998 for his reports from Algeria[41] and again in 2000 for his articles on the NATO air campaign against the FRY in 1999.[42]

1984 Lancaster University honorary degree[43]
1991 Jacob's Award for coverage of the Gulf War on RTÉ Radio 1[44]
1999 Orwell Prize for journalism[45]
2001 David Watt Prize for an investigation of the 1915 Armenian Genocide by the Ottoman Empire[46]
2002 Martha Gellhorn Prize for Journalism[47]
2003 Open University honorary doctorate[48]
2004 University of St Andrews honorary degree[49]
2004 Carleton University honorary degree[50]
2005 Adelaide University Edward Said Memorial lecture[51]
2006 Ghent University honorary degree Political and Social Sciences[52]
2006 American University of Beirut honorary degree[53]
2006 Queen's University Belfast honorary degree[54]
2006 Lannan Cultural Freedom Prize worth $350,000[55]
2008 University of Kent honorary degree[56]
2008 Trinity College Dublin honorary doctorate[57]
2009 College Historical Society's Gold Medal for Outstanding Contribution to Public Discourse[58]
2009 Liverpool Hope University honorary degree[59][60]
2011 International Prize at the Amalfi Coast Media Awards, Italy[61]
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Yakiv
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Yakiv » 17 avr. 2018, 20:53:29

Incognito a écrit :
17 avr. 2018, 13:18:43
La réputation qui précède Robert Fisk? Vous voulez parler de sa réputation d’excellence journalistique? Vous croyez que c’est Poutine qui lui a attribué tous ces prix ?
Il est pas le seul à avoir des prix, si ?
Et visiblement, ça ne l'empêche pas de nourrir de nombreux a priori idéologiques.

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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 18 avr. 2018, 11:28:20

Yakiv a écrit :
17 avr. 2018, 20:53:29
Et visiblement, ça ne l'empêche pas de nourrir de nombreux a priori idéologiques.
Et bien, illustrez donc votre propos sur base de cet article par exemple:
viewtopic.php?p=535095#p535095
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Narbonne » 18 avr. 2018, 17:53:31

Robert Fisk avait écrit, pendant la guerre du Liban, qu'Israel avait utilisé des munitions à l'uranium appauvri. Fait qui s'est avéré totalement faux
Ils ne savaient pas que c'était impossible, alors ils l'ont fait.

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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par El Fredo » 18 avr. 2018, 22:23:28

A propos de l'article de Fisk sur la Douma, lire ce thread Twitter qui apporte un contrepoint à partir de sources concordantes d'autres journalistes présents sur place :

https://mobile.twitter.com/_RichardHall ... 3425107970

Absence de preuve n'est pas preuve de l'absence, de plus Fisk se contente de rapporter des ouï-dire de la part d'un médecin qui n'était même pas sur place.
If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the Mighty One— I am become Death, the shatterer of Worlds.

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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 19 avr. 2018, 10:19:24

Sondage intéressant: l’opinion des syriens!
https://www.orb-international.com/wp-co ... 2018-1.pdf

La coalition internationale n’obtient pas beaucoup d’opinions positives. Quelle surprise!
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 19 avr. 2018, 11:20:53

C’est sur ce genre de sujet qu’on voit la différence entre un politicien de haut niveau et un politicien bas de gamme. Si Macron avait consacré son énergie à combattre la loi numéro 10 par exemple, il aurait pu obtenir un résultat tangible et positif pour les syriens. Mais non, avec ses frappes militaires, il préfère jouer au gros macho pour se donner une importance qu’il n’a pas.
Displaced Syrians ensnared by new property law stand to lose everything

mar. 17 avr. 2018 - 00:00

AMMAN: Scrolling through his Facebook feed at his home in Jordan last week, Syrian refugee Salim Muhammad’s eyes fell upon a news headline that made his heart sink.

AMMAN: Scrolling through his Facebook feed at his home in Jordan last week, Syrian refugee Salim Muhammad’s eyes fell upon a news headline that made his heart sink.

Under a new property law issued by the Syrian government in early April, Muhammad has one month to prove ownership of his house and land in a village near Homs that he fled under government shelling in 2012, or risk losing it.

“I always held out hope that we could go back,” Muhammad told Syria Direct. “This decree has destroyed all chance of that.”

Introduced on April 2, Law 10 sets in motion a massive overhaul of the government land registry across Syria, state news agency SANA reported.

Law 10 gives property owners both in Syria and abroad just 30 days—starting April 11—to present their deeds to local council offices in the country. Otherwise, the state can liquidate their titles and seize their holdings. Once the registration window closes, “the remaining plots will be sold at auction,” reads Article 31 of the law.

For citizens living abroad like Muhammad, family members as distant as a second cousin may present the documents in their stead.

However, the millions of Syrians impacted by Law 10 include refugees and internally displaced people without family back home to assist with registration, as well as people whose deeds were lost or destroyed during the war.

Perhaps most ominously for opposition supporters, all property owners wishing to register their lands must first obtain approval from state security officials, a lawyer in Damascus familiar with the law told Syria Direct. The lawyer spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of repercussions.

“Without this approval, they will not be able to prove ownership of the property,” said the lawyer. “Therefore, it would be sold at auction or claimed by another person.”

“Herein lies the seriousness of this decree,” she added.

The need for security clearance could exclude large swathes of the Syrian population inside and outside the country with outstanding arrest warrants or known anti-government sympathies from registering their property.

Muhammad is one of them. Although he still has the deed for his house and land in the south Homs village of al-Buwaidah a-Sharqiyah, he says the Syrian government has issued an outstanding warrant for his arrest.

“I am wanted by the regime on charges of incitement and attending demonstrations,” says Muhammad. “I understand that the regime means to take our property with a legal text, creating new laws to suit their interests.”

Image
The Daraya Executive Council discusses the return of the displaced, April 7. Photo courtesy of Daraya Executive Council.

Law 10 comes in the immediate wake of the Syrian government’s recapture of East Ghouta, one of the last major rebel-held areas near Damascus, in early April. The subsequent displacement of more than 60,000 residents to opposition territory leaves the fate of thousands of properties near Damascus uncertain.

Under the new law, former residents of the enclave would now need family members to register property on their behalf, or go to government territory themselves and risk arrest.

The Damascus lawyer who Syria Direct contacted this month said that, although Syria has long needed to update the property registry, she believes the timing of Law 10 makes its motives suspect.

“The timing of the decree, in light of the war which has seen millions displaced and the creation of refugees who cannot return to their homes because of the security situation, certainly raises doubts,” she said.

Even before the latest property law, international aid agencies warned of legal ramifications surrounding the issue of lost or damaged property in Syria. A Norwegian Refugee Council report this past February estimated that the state could face more than 2 million lawsuits from Syrians seeking restitution for lost or damaged property in the wake of the civil war.

The subject of property titles and deeds in Syria is greatly complicated by the existence of parallel administrative systems that sprang up across a patchwork of opposition areas during the conflict. When government forces recapture these areas, documentation produced by opposition authorities is of little use.

Furthermore, many property documents have been lost or destroyed in recent years as residents fled shelling and ground fighting in regions across Syria.

According to the same NRC report, only nine percent of Syrians who fled their country during the war have access to their property deeds today. An estimated 5.6 million people have fled the country as refugees, and a further 6.1 million people are displaced inside Syria.

Image
A map of property to be registered in Daraya, April 4. Photo courtesy of Daraya Executive Council

Abdel Hameed a-Shami, a 28-year-old media activist from the formerly rebel-held south Damascus city of Darayya, currently lives in opposition-held northern Syria with his family. He left Darayya in August 2016 when all of the city’s fighters and residents were evacuated in a surrender agreement with the Syrian government.

A-Shami’s family owned a home in Darayya, but the activist says that he, too, is wanted by the government and cannot register his property. Many other former Darayya residents are in a similar position, he says.

“There are thousands of families from Daraya that are living outside now, entire families that are wanted by the regime,” a-Shami told Syria Direct. He fears the Syrian government is using the law to seize the homes of opposition supporters and give them to its own support base.

In Jordan, Muhammad and his family have few options, he says. With no family left in Syria to register their property and no way for Muhammad to receive security approval due to his arrest warrant, he believes it is only a matter of time until he officially loses his property in Homs.

"The [government] decision has made me lose all hope of returning to Syria," Muhammad said. "The regime has abandoned us, bombed us, destroyed us, and now they want to take away our homes and lands.”


Article complet sur http://syriadirect.org/news/displaced-s ... verything/
Dieu est mort. Marx est mort. Et moi-même je ne me sens pas très bien ... (Woody Allen)

Incognito
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Incognito » 19 avr. 2018, 19:24:23

Et encore une: la poche rebelle du Qualamoun oriental, au nord-est de Damas, s’est rendue. C’est une grande surface, mais les rebelles n’y disposaient pas de forces importantes. Il y avait un cessez-le-feu informel depuis plusieurs années, cessez-le-feu que les rebelles ont rompu pendant l’offensive du gouvernement sur Ghouta.
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Breaking: East Qalamoun rebels unconditionally surrender after being overwhelmed by two-day Syrian Army offensive

jeu. 19 avr. 2018 - 13:12

BEIRUT, LEBANON (4:11 P.M.) - Besieged rebel forces holding out in the eastern mountains of Syria's Qalamoun region have unconditionally surrender to the Syrian Army amid realization of an impossible…

BEIRUT, LEBANON (4:11 P.M.) – Besieged rebel forces holding out in the eastern mountains of Syria’s Qalamoun region have unconditionally surrender to the Syrian Army amid realization of an impossible military situation.

The development comes just two days after elite Syrian Army formations launched an all-out offensive in eastern Qalamoun that blitzed militant positions throughout the region and isolated a key rebel stronghold – the town of Ar-Ruhaybah.

Namely it was the Free Syrian Army-linked group Jaysh Tahrir al-Sham which at first refused to accept government surrender terms that has since issued a formal capitulation.

Per virtually every other surrender agreement, rebels will be offered to either reconcile with the Syrian government or allow themselves to be evacuated to another militant-controlled region of Syria.

Insurgent forces in eastern Qalamoun are expected to hand over their heavy weapons (i.e. tanks and artillery) to the Syrian Army in the coming days.

Updates to follow.

Andrew Illingworth
Article complet sur https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/br ... offensive/
Dieu est mort. Marx est mort. Et moi-même je ne me sens pas très bien ... (Woody Allen)

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Yakiv
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Re: Quel avenir pour la Syrie ?

Message non lu par Yakiv » 19 avr. 2018, 22:30:20

Incognito a écrit :
19 avr. 2018, 11:20:53
C’est sur ce genre de sujet qu’on voit la différence entre un politicien de haut niveau et un politicien bas de gamme. Si Macron avait consacré son énergie à combattre la loi numéro 10 par exemple, il aurait pu obtenir un résultat tangible et positif pour les syriens.
C'est quoi la loi numéro 10 ?

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